To Celeste in response to a question about forgiveness and the church shootings.
Hi Celeste, this is an interesting subject, almost all the people I meet believe that we should forgive when someone is not repentant. Most people don't realize that this teaching came from psychology and not from God's Word.
There are no verses in the Bible that teach we are to forgive for our own sake. Forgiveness is always for the reconciling of a relationship after a wrong. Relationships cannot be reconciled when only one party is unwilling to do what is needed.
James 5:16 "16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Of course the passage in James is speaking about believers one to another, however if we look at God's standard for unbelievers we see that He does not forgive those who are not broken over their sin enough to confess to Him their need for cleansing.
1 John 1:9 - IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
God said we are to forgive AS He forgives, Christ never forgives the sins of rebellious hearts, they will not be born again unless they repent (change their mind to be broken over their sin). The purpose for repenting and confessing is to reconcile the relationship between God and man.
As for the idea that we are not forgiven if we do not forgive, that is true, God said it, however we are to forgive the WAY Christ did.
Luke 17:4 ""And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Notice the person being forgiven is coming to ask for it in Luke 17.
We are to be ready and willing to forgive even praying for the repentance of those who have sinned, but we cannot pass out that forgiveness until there is brokenness. As believers we should always have a forgiving heart ready to forgive.
In the case of the church shooting, the people of the church have a desire to forgive, they want to love God's way and that is good, but they misunderstand the purpose and meaning of forgiveness.
When someone is not sorry, they will not change their ways and they have no remorse, they will not be forgiven by God. Are we greater than God that we should forgive when God does not.
When someone is broken over sin then they are ready to be changed by Christ, when they are sorrowful over their sin then they are ready to resume with those offended in a whole different way. The relationship can only be restored if both parties do their part. And, relationships cannot remain as they are in their sinfulness, there must be a new way of relating to one another that turns from that sin. I do not trust anyone who sins continually to be any different with me than there were in the past, the absence of remorse shows me they will repeat the same sin over and over again.
When we forgive before someone is repentant we shortcut God's purpose, that is to be broken over sin for a changed heart. Forgiveness without repentance does nothing, it flies into the air and goes no where, the broken relationship is not restored and the person who sinned is not changed.
The scripture does not say that when we cannot forgive because of unrepentance, it is automatically a given that we become bitter. The root of bitterness comes when someone is repentant and we refuse to forgive.
The true believer always desires to forgive whether or not they can pass that forgiveness to someone. We pray for our persecutors, we may even go and visit them in jail to bring the gospel, but we do not forgive until they show signs of remorse, and when it is real it will come out in words.
Our culture has a perverted view of forgiveness, everyone expects to be forgiven no matter how evil they act, some even manipulate others by saying "you have to forgive me", when there has been no sign of sorrow over sin. My answer to those people is, "no I don't have to forgive you until you are sorry about your sin."
Psalm 51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."
Our culture has become arrogant and self righteous because they believe that forgiveness is automatic no matter what the offense or if there is sorrow over it. Criminals will cry crocodile tears when told they are forgiven by the victim, causing the forgiver to think they are repentant, and then go and repeat the same crime on someone else. I have seen this for myself.
This modern view of forgiveness has caused unbelievers and even believer to think that they don't have to repent to be saved. They think they can live like the devil, call themselves a good person and God will still take them into heaven, without brokenness, and without remorse over the evil that they do.
We forgive others for their sake when they are repentant, not for our sake to make ourselves feel better.
Bitterness does not automatically come just because we follow God's standard of forgiveness, forgiving only when someone is sorry. The world has perverted the view of forgiveness to allow anyone to sin all they want without accountability.
In 2 Timothy 3:1-7 God clearly tells us to stay away from unrepentant wicked people.
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
7. always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Take special note of verse 5 in 2 Timothy 3.
In the case of the shooter, if that were my church I would encourage everyone to visit the perp in the jail, bringing a message of salvation along with a plate of cookies. I would bless him with kindness, but I would not forgive him until he repented. He murdered several people, to forgive him before repentance is to dishonor the dead that he brutally killed and subvert justice. The purpose of the visit and cookies is to show him, "we offer you salvation with God's kind of love, and He will forgive you when you repent. We want you to become saved from your sin and hell." We must never send the message to the shooter that he is forgiven by God when he is not sorry.
We short cut God's ways by making people feel better about themselves before they are broken, solidifying their high opinion of themselves. WE never do harm or revenge to others, but we keep our forgiveness to ourselves until there is genuine sorrow over an offence. If our offender is wounded lying in a ditch as in the story of the good Samaritan, then we help our enemy, but we do not become their friend.
We need to stop doing everything "for ourselves" and begin doing things that benefit the sinner long term. We also need to evaluate everything we learned from the culture and psychology, those who do will find that many things we were taught are patently wrong and even damaging to those we say we love.
Love goes beyond feelings, it demonstrates a willingness to be reject by someone, holding out for the best, long term result God's Way!
A Social Christian: One who goes to church, learns the spiritual lingo while unconcerned about holiness, defending the sin that God hates, even despising anyone who will correct them. These people often twist Scripture to make it say what they want it to, they have just enough knowledge to be dangerous but not enough to really understand God's Word.
Matthew 7:21-23
"21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
These same people have many right words, but no resolve to be what they claim they are:
Matthew 15:8
"'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME."
Those caught up in replacement theology have to ignore a lot of scripture, it is demonic and irrational.
Romans 11
2 Timothy 3:1-7 "3 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of [b]godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth."
Notice God said in verse 5 "get away from them." These people are not reasonable, they are not teachable and they are nothing but trouble.
I wrote this article some time ago, but felt led of the Lord to repost it, since I am running into so many people who are under the spell of the "Christian Narcissist." The devil is using these people to divide and conquer in marriages, pitting one spouse against another to cozy up to the one they elevate while demeaning the one that will not be controlled by them. It is a favorite tactic, to ruin families, devised by the devil. If he can destroy families with continual contention and foolishness, then he can ruin the witness of grieving believrs who don't realize what they are dealing with.
We see much more often now, the "divide and conquer" mentality in adult children, favoring one parent over another to destroy the one who will not submit to their control and manipulation. They devalue and demean those they cannot control, while having contempt for their accomplishments. They have no Christlike love, nor do they have any sense of empathy for anyone, their life is consumed with self on every level.
God described these people in 2 Timothy 3:1-7 and commanded us to get away from them. There is a term in the study of narcissism called "no contact", that upholds the concept spoken of in 2 Timothy, that is to remove ourselves from these people they are trouble makers who don't love Christ but claim they do, they who set out to destroy the joy and peace in marriages and families. They honor God with their lips but their heart is far from Him.
Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 15:8
Here is the original article:
Have you experienced people who treat you with contempt through dismissiveness, ignoring you completely, leaving you out of any plans they make to punish you for some imagined or perceived wrong you have done? Those who would attempt to ruin every good time, just to keep you from being happy or fulfilled, will do this out of jealousy, they cannot tolerate the object of their contempt enjoying themselves, they must destroy their targets happiness any way they can.
Many people are experiencing this form of persecution because they speak the truth boldly and the narcissist just can't stand that someone is not elevating them as they feel they must be admired.
This evil of narcissistic behavior is growing exponentially since the onset of the self esteem teaching. The culture has taught many people to love themselves above everyone else and it has appealed to the basest of all human traits, selfishness.
Those who call a narc to account or disagree with them, about anything, will be their target of hate. They will go out of their way to negate all that their target does, even when there is no reason to, simply to keep, as they see it, the upper position.
Narcissists are people who must be continually elevated by their friends, they cannot stand being in second place in anything. When a friend challenges them on even the slightest matter, the narc will retaliate through various tactics to beat down their target.
If they can get their target to become angry, the narcissist counts himself as having won. If the target refuses to be manipulated and stands his ground the narc will isolate the target from the group or himself, to maintain the superior position.
A narcissist cannot have anyone in their life that does anything better than they do or who will not succumb to their manipulative tactics.
You will find them attempting to "one-up" those in their sphere of influence, if they cannot do it, then they will negate their rival in every way possible. Often triangulating, a term that means to turn others against their target through often subtle forms of manipulation and even blatant disregard for them.
I have had a narcissist tell me to my face that he did not respect me, while convincing another narcissist to follow suite. Simply because I told the truth, stuck to my guns in my stand, the narcissists couldn't tolerate it and began gossiping about me. Narcs do not respect anyone they cannot control.
He thought that it would intimidate me to tell me his hatred for me. Little do narcs realize that their attempts to destroy their target only works in their own minds, most often all they are able to accomplish is chasing away everyone who will not place themselves under the narcs thumb. The narc has only superficial friends, because anyone who gets close enough to really know them, leaves as soon as they realize what they are dealing with.
Narcs will tell half truths and lies to turn others against us, even though, if they were asked to tell the story of what the problem was, all they could say would be that we had verbally spanked them for something, their reasons are purely selfish, contrived and self glorifying.
Narcissists cannot stand correction, it flies in the face of their need to be superior to others. Narcissists will compete with others for top position even in spiritual matters, desiring to know more while being better educated in their own minds. They believe they are superior, often it is not true, but they must think so to keep their elevated position. They have a child like fragile view of their own self importance, that must be continually stroked.
This is why we see so many narcissists in the pulpits today. Those who think they have something special to offer God often become Bible school educated to flaunt their knowledge as though it makes them more spiritual or superior to others or as though going to Bible college really does make someone wise. There is a vast difference between having knowledge and having wisdom. But knowledge is honored much more highly than wisdom is among the narcissists. Since Bible school was man's concoction in the first place it was bound to eventually go bad.
Appearing better is enough for the narc, they don't have to actually BE better as long as they can convince others that they are, they are satisfied. Given enough time, the narc begins to believe he is better when the facts do not bear it out.
It is impossible to have friendships with a narc, they will not listen long enough to learn anything, believing they already know it all. They make judgements about others without evidence or so little evidence that they couldn't possibly know the truth.
Narcs must have "heroes", they need to be able to identify with other human beings that they think are as highly valued as they value themselves. Without heroes, narcs have no stability from which to draw. They do not trust Christ, because all their trust is in themselves, they do not trust anyone except those who are famous or deeply accomplished, having proven they are worthy of love and respect, but the narc does not love, they only elevate.
Narcs cannot enjoy love in the true sense, the Christ-like love of God, because their love is based on earthly accomplishments and how much the object of their love elevates them personally.
The only solution for the narcissist is to become born again, realizing they are nothing and sinful before a holy God, then and only then can Christ change them. The difficulty is that a narc is so full of themselves, it will take a monstrous disaster that they cannot control to show them their total helplessness. Until they can admit they are worthy of only death in the presence of a holy God, they will not be able to be saved.
No one can come to Christ thinking they have anything to offer, and be saved. It is only when we admit that we are nothing, and are worthy of hell fire, that Christ will save us and change us into a new creation.
I fear that there are far too many people calling themselves Christians who have never been born again, believing they had something special to bring to God, never having been broken over their sin, they plod along stroking their own egos about their elevated self importance, while resisting the truth of their lost estate, chasing off anyone who will challenge them in holiness.
May the Lord open the eyes of these self righteous narcissists, may they be broken over their sinfulness!
Matthew 7:21-23
"21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
I believe every name is written in the Lambs book of life, when we became born again it remains forever. I believe all people were written in the book and when they die refusing Christ it is blotted out.
Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Even though he knows not all will trust Him.
Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Some will not trust Christ but hope to get in anyway by their own deeds and ideas.
Matthew 7:21-23 "21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
I believe these verses show that Christ died for all, his desire was that all would be born again and He even placed all names in the book until each made his choice to obey or not obey.
I am meeting a lot of people who take scripture our of context to make it say what they want it to, as if God intended us to do that. When I correct them with the context, they fight and argue and often refuse to listen to the truth.
Some scriptures that are often taken our of context have to do with physical exercise. It seems clear to me that God never intended for man to run hard every day for miles. The scientific evidence indicates that jostling our organs and bones age them more rapidly and create injuries, than if one did not run on a regular basis. Of course walking is different, it is something we have to do every day and our bodies were designed to do. Running and intense exercise is abuse of the body with sometimes severe consequences later on in life.
One of the scriptures people use to justify their lust for "body beautiful", is this one;
1 Corinthians 9:27 "27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
If we look at the context we see that it is not speaking about physical exercise but rather fleshly desires.
Verse 4 of chapter 9 speaks of what we put into our bodies, verse 5 is referring to taking a wife, working to earn a living is part of this subject, verse 12 speaks of enduring all things in order to not be a hindrance to others, verse 23 says, " I do all things for the sake of the gospel, he uses the example of running to show that if we would work as hard at the gospel and our spiritual life as we do when someone runs, we would be pleasing to God and useful. And, finally verse 27 speaks about beating the body to make it my slave.
The entire context has to do with serving God fully while denying ourselves things we enjoy to be more useful, it does not have to do with making our bodies strong and beautiful through exercise. The exercise we see in these passages has to do with making our spiritual life strong while minimizing our focus on the flesh.
When we see how many things unspiritual people have twisted of God's word to justify and enjoy their fleshly desire for physical pleasures, we can see that most of modern Christendom has little to do with truth.
Whenever I hear people using these passages as mentioned above, to justify an over emphasis on physical prowess, I am convinced this person does not read the Bible for the sake of truth or personal holiness, rather they read it to find the scriptures they can twist to justify that with which God is not pleased.
Another scripture I have seen taken out of context pertaining to this matter of physical exercise is 1 Timothy 4:8 "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."
God is minimizing bodily exercise in this verse, let's look at the context. Verse 8 speaks about disciplining ourselves (spiritually) for the purpose of godliness. The entire passage has to do with dedicating ourselves to truth, proper doctrine and the growth of the spirit within. Verse 14 says that we are not to neglect the spiritual gift within us, verse 15 says take pains in these things and be absorbed in them. And, finally notice God says physical exercise is of "little" value. It doesn't do much for us in this life.
Our modern culture has turned this around, they take pains in their physical exercise while neglecting the spiritual matters. They speak more about their latest physical conquest and sports accomplishment than anything else and they almost never speak of spiritual matters. We are a sports and exercise crazed culture.
The reason we see so much mania concerning this matter of sports and physical fitness is because our Christian culture is fixated on appearances. They have little interest in becoming holy but are on overload when it comes to outer beauty and acceptance from the community around them. It's a little like showing off our bodies using the excuse that looking good glorifies God, the opposite of what God actually said. Christ was said to have an appearance that no one would desire Him, we do not read of one instance in which Christ exercised His body.
1 Samuel 16:7 "But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
1 Peter 3:3-4 "Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious."
Proverbs 31:30 "Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised."
James 1:23 "For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror."
Matthew 23:28 "So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
Notice we do not see any other scriptures in the Bible that mention physical prowess as something to aspire to, and even the ones that have been used here, were taken out of context to justify pride in appearance.
All the hoopla about natural food, exercise and excessive safety measures were developed by an unsaved paranoid world that is entirely focused on this world and this life. These same people are those who developed the doctrine of "self esteem" in their feeble effort to make this life the best it can be since they believe it is all there is. They believe that all this physical attention and pride in self will make for a better life. We see that it is not from God but from the devil to distract us from the important things God speaks of and that is spiritual. All this worldly focus on physical beauty, strength and outer appearance is not for the believer.
All the people I know who are involved in regular exercise and natural food, speak much more about those things than they do the spiritual life, most don't speak about God at all, but many who do speak about God, ignore most of His principles, in favor of a happy and sensual (based on the physical senses) life adding some scripture to their existence to feel justified in their pursuit of worldly pleasure.
Pride and lack of faith is at the root of all this mess about physical beauty and the worship of youthful health.
When we focus on Christ and His principles, we have far less time to spend worshiping our own bodies. I challenge any believer that exercises regularly to spend the same amount of time studying, (not just reading) the Word of God while praying for the understanding through the Holy Spirit. Just reading will not do, we must ask the Lord to show us and dig deeply as the Bible says, the way we would for silver or gold.
Those who do this must be willing to set aside all the lies the world has told us to believe what God tells us.
Proverbs 3:5-8
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your body And refreshment to your bones."
